ENTERING ENEMY TERRITORY

Is it possible to ever really separate the artist from the art?

Hello, good people of the internet, and welcome to the Redux Series, which is a series that involves me going back to my old blog posts from the last 10 years of my Adventures In Woo Woo blog to see if I still align with them, or if I have anything to add or subtract from them. In the end, I'll collect it all together as a book.

---

Of all the redux posts to date, this is the one I am probably most trepidatious about. While I still very much agree with its basic premise — you should make an effort to listen to opposing opinions and views rather than only ever listening to people you agree with — I think there is a chance that due to the example enemy I use, some people might see it as me suggesting “Well, maybe we should let the Nazis have their say”.

That’s definitely not my intention, belief, or position.

The post below from 2018 proposes that even very bad people can have good ideas, and it would be a mistake to throw out those good ideas because of the character or behaviour of the person. I also generally still agree with this, but I now think it’s a bit more complicated than I did in 2018.

At what point is keeping the good ideas also tolerating the bad? If a Nazi wrote and recorded the best music album ever, would listening to that be supporting Nazism? Should I now not like a movie I love because it has come to light that the star is a terrible person who did terrible things? Can I still love my favourite book even if the author is a predator?

Part of me says yes. Part of me says no.

Why should I let the bad person take away my joy? Why should I punish myself for the acts of another? But is my continued love of the art a form of excusing the problematic behaviour because I like their product? Maybe if I pirate it, it's OK?

I still listen and love the Beatles, despite all I know about their personal lives. I still listen to lots of music made by people who did very bad things. I've read lots of books by people who were just terrible people and found them very insightful.

I don’t know where the line is, but I do know I often say that if I only read non-problematic writers on the occult, I wouldn’t have anything to read. While funny and only slightly hyperbolic, it might also just be another form of normalising shitty people and terrible behaviour.

But what’s the alternative? Just not read the books and miss out on all the good information and insights?

Maybe. But then we are in danger of doing exactly what this post is speaking against – only listening to the voices that we already agree with or deem acceptable!
___

Looking back over the last number of years, and particularly the last election cycle across the water in the United States, it has become painfully obvious to me that I am smack bang in the middle of a propaganda bubble.

I can look at countries like Russia, North Korea or China and condescendingly look down at how badly they have fallen for the propaganda, lies, spin, censorship, and control. I can say, “How did they fall for this? How can they not see the truth?” and yet, it's becoming painfully obvious that I am also living in the exact same situation as them.

How am I falling for it?
How can I not see the truth?

And I don’t just mean on the bigger government scale, I mean in my small online communities, too. It often feels like the list of taboos grows bigger every day and while most of this — I hope — is coming from a good place of wanting inclusion and ending hatred, it still often feels like control.

I feel that it is very important for me to listen to people I disagree with as much as people I agree with. So much so, that I have made it a practice over the last few years to deliberately expose myself to counterviews, theories, and takes.

The reason I started doing this is because I noticed that when people criticised people or books or whatever on social media, a large chunk of them were only going by secondhand information.

It wasn’t that they had read a book or listened to a lecture and became incensed, it was that they had listened to a talk ABOUT the book or lecture and became incensed. I caught myself doing this several times, too. And I noticed that when I checked the facts of the headline, it was clear that the headline and the accompanying article were often very disingenuous. Not always, of course, but enough to become suspicious of all of them.

How do I know if I disagree with someone if I haven’t ever listened to what they actually said? And in context.

Sometimes I get suggested videos on YT from people I can’t stand, or I know will just annoy me if I watch them. But I ask myself – why is this? Why am I having this reaction? What is it that they are saying or representing that is pushing my buttons here? What am I trying to avoid? It was frequently the case that I was just aiming to keep my views and worldview from being challenged.

And so I make myself watch the video and see what it is. Or I read the book, listen to the podcast, or hang out in the opposing Subreddits to my views. Not to debate, or to change hearts and minds, but to understand their position. To know their position. And to see how I feel about it.

If I only ever listen to people who agree with me, are on the same page as me, have similar opinions and political views, only hang around in the safe zones of my communities and never enter enemy territory can I really be growing as a person?

I don’t think so.

A lot of insights come from the times when I challenge myself by listening to the “enemy”. Throwing myself into the problematic waters of opposing viewpoints helps me become unstuck from my own. I can get a glimpse of my blind spots and prejudices. I can see where I am conforming to groupthink. And often I realised how much I have in common with people who I’m told I shouldn’t.

But this comes with a big caveat.

It is VERY easy to get sucked into these worldviews and outlooks and become radicalised. You can see this happening all too regularly to people over the last number of years. What starts with an interesting YouTube rabbit hole can lead to really terrible places. A lot of the enemy territories come with ready-made solutions to problems which promote tribalism, segregation, hatred, exclusion, and “Us vs Them”.

Enter enemy territory, but for god’s sake, don’t stay there.

ENTERING ENEMY TERRITORY

24th April 2018

Last month, I posted the above meme of John Lennon on Facebook, and a bit of a discussion developed in the replies. I am a huge Beatles fan, always have been, and I think what Lennon’s said here is valid. The problem is that John Lennon wasn’t a particularly nice person.

In fact, he was a pretty shitty person.

I recently read, or more correctly listened to, John Lennon: The Life by Phillip Norman, which is a pretty extensive and in-depth biography of Lennon. While I knew a LOT about The Beatles, and this was not my first Beatles biography, there was still plenty of new information in it for me. I already knew that Lennon wasn’t a wonderful person by any means, but I didn’t quite realise just how nasty he was. I won’t go into any details as Lennon is really the point of this piece, but the book is worth your time if the topic interests you.

The discussion on Facebook brought up the idea of how to separate the Art from the Artist, or indeed, whether we even should. Should we throw away all of Lennon’s good points because he was a terrible human being in other areas of his life? I don’t know how I feel about this, other than I still listen to The Beatles and would still consider them my favourite group despite now knowing what I know about him. Would my enjoyment of his music be any different if I had found out he had murdered children, been a paedophile, owned slaves or things similar or worse? I honestly don’t know. Maybe.

This brought me to the idea that if I can accept Lennon warts and all, shouldn’t I also look at the sections or groups of people who I have rejected and shunned because I disagree or detest their views on certain topics? Is it wrong to outright dismiss every insight someone holds because of a perceived “wrongness” in one or more areas of their lives? Or is that narrow-minded?

I’ll give you an example. I was recently searching through some YouTube videos about Runes. I came across a guy named Paul Waggener who had three really good videos about Runes and how to use them for self-empowerment.

I really enjoyed the videos and his take on the Runes, and I got some valuable new insights out of it. The “problem” with Paul Waggener is that I soon found out that he is a member of the Wolves of Vinland, which is a White Nationalist Norse neo-pagan group. This is a group that I would usually shun, reject and frankly – immediately hate!

BUT, rather than following my usual knee-jerk reaction, I decided that I wouldn’t just instantly reject his Rune information because I vehemently disagree with his other ideas. I spent some time over the next few days watching all his videos, reading what other people say about him and his group, reading his blog, I read one of his books on Magick, and following the trail until I found Jack Donovan. Donovan is a white Supremacist homosexual who hates homosexuals.

He has written a few books – the most famous of which is THE WAY OF MEN. I tried to read it, but couldn’t get past a few chapters. I wasn’t offended or shocked or anything – I just didn’t care about what he had to say. Virtually hanging out with white-supremacists-neo-nazis-manly-men had lost its appeal, and so I ceased.

So, even though I wouldn’t ever want to meet these guys in real life, nor would I ever like to think or live like them, is it my duty as a “good” person to disregard everything they say, even if it is really helpful to me? Should Weggener’s very decent teachings on Runes (and weight lifting for that matter) be rejected because of who he is – or should I be able to separate the “Art” from the “Artist”?

If I knew Paul Waggener in real life, I probably wouldn’t listen to him talk about Runes, as I just wouldn’t want to be associated or interact with him. Quite possibly, if I had known John Lennon, I would have been put off his music by his personality. These people aren’t really real to me in many ways. They’re more like “stories” than people.

In the end, the biggest boon out of all this was that YouTube started recommending Mike Cernovich* videos and again while I don’t agree with everything he says, I have learned LOTS from him and his book Gorilla Mindset is just fantastic – a real game changer in my person self-development journey.

Had I not allowed myself to go into enemy territory, I am pretty sure I would never have come across Cernovich and even If I had, I probably would have quickly dismissed Cernovich due to his political leanings – he’s a huge Trump fan amongst other things. But now having spent some time listening to his views, I can understand where he is coming from without necessarily agreeing with him.

And this, I feel, must be the better outcome than my previous knee-jerk flat-out rejection of people who have different or dangerous ideas. Maybe, even if it’s just every once in a while, we should enter enemy territory, check them out and see if we can learn anything from them. Perhaps it is possible to learn “good” things from “bad” people.

_________
2025 Notes

* Funnily enough, as it turns out, Cernovich, is in fact quite the problematic character. But to prove my point, I did learn stuff from him all the same, which isn’t to be read as any sort of condonation of his wider output or behaviour.

---

You can read the rest of the Blog Redux Series here!

---

And that's it for another AIWW Newsletter, I hope you got something from it. If you'd like to chat about it, you can leave a comment below, or come find me on Bluesky!

If you would like to support me in doing all the things I do, then feel free to join the PATREON, buy a FORTY SERVANTS deck, get me a book or something from my Amazon Wish List, or just send me some money via PAYPAL. It all really, really helps, and is very much appreciated.

So, until next time,
MAY YOUR BEST DAYS BE AHEAD!

Tommie

---

My name is Tommie Kelly, and I’m an artist, musician, writer & chaos magician from Ireland. I’m probably best known for creating the magick and divination system, THE FORTY SERVANTS. These periodical newsletters are about my adventures in creativity, spirituality, and magick. Check out my website: Adventures In Woo Woo